Elle Williamson: The dark art of email marketing

This week I chatted with the wonderful Elle from The E-commerce Assistant, who elevates small businesses to the next level with websites and email marketing. So if you can’t tell the difference between your Shopify or your Klaviyo (no - me nether!)
then this is the episode for you.

Having just got into the dark art of email marketing for my own business (via the brilliant Helen Perry and her List Club) I thought I speak to an expert and Elle is excellent at what she does. It’s not all biz talk though as we also discuss the shit-show of running your own biz during the school holidays (and I offer what’s worked for me!) plus a big dose of Marvel geekdom - we are both totally team Antman.

Elle is so brilliant that she is launching her own online school, that will teach you how to make your website work hard for you with e-commerce strategy from the ground up, so you can retain and convert customers. (hurrah!) You can find out more here.

Jump into my Insta DM’s and let me know if you enjoyed this episode - I think you’ll find this really useful.

P.S That One Thing is a true passion project (I don’t get paid but I love producing it!) - you can now help me out a little by buying me a coffee - ( I LOVE coffee) xxx

Transcript

Speaker A: Hello.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to The One Thing, a podcast where I talk to fabulous females about the one thing that made them step out of their comfort zone and change their life for the better. Because it's only by taking brave steps that we truly grow as a person. I'm your host, mum, social media manager and General soul searcher, Vanessa Carlos. And every week, I'll be introducing a small business owner, a blogger or a creative to discuss their One Thing.

Speaker C: Now, before I start writing on about email marketing with the lovely L, I thought I would drop in here quickly and talk to you about my brand new newsletter, which is coming out every other Friday. I'm going to be talking all things ads and marketing, what's going on in my world at that moment, which will include podcast, recommendations, TV stuff that I'm really loving at the moment. If you'd like to come and see me on there, I would be overjoyed. I love you, podcast listeners. As you know, the link will be in my description. I'd love to see you there. Now, time for the show. Hello, hello, my lovely listeners and welcome back to that One Thing. At the time of recording, it is kind of early November and we're getting in the mood for Christmas. We've got rid of Halloween, we've got rid of Bonfire Night and it's really starting to build up. We're seeing the ads in the shops, we're seeing ads all over the place, we're seeing emails being bombarded with stuff from everybody trying to sell you the world of his wife. So I thought it would be a really good time to give you my chat, which I only chatted with her maybe a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker A: Now.

Speaker C: Al Williams, sent from the Ecommerce assistant on Insta. She elevates small businesses to the next level with websites and email marketing. So if you can't tell the difference between your shopify or your PL no, me neither. Then this is the episode for you. You're going to enjoy this so much. I've just got into the dark art of email marketing on my own, as you have probably heard from the ad that came before this intro. I just finished Helen Perry's List Club and it was a complete revelation. So I thought I would speak to the expert. That Ellis, and she is pretty much brilliant at what she does. It's not all biz chat, though, just putting that caveat out there. Now, we're going to talk about the **** show that is the school holidays and how we manage our businesses. Well, we're also running the **** show. Plus there's going to be a big dose of Marvel geekdom that's coming in at the end. We are both totally team and man, you're going to enjoy that. If you're really into Marvel, I don't know if you are. Anyway, Elle is brilliant and enjoy this conversation. Be back at the end with all the links and a couple more bits and pieces. But for now, let's introduce the wonderful.

Speaker A: Welcome, al, how about one thing? So lovely for you to be here. We've just been talking about how **** I was right at the beginning of my podcast and how I had headphones with bunny ears on, which I think I probably spoke about, actually did. I was just like, let's just get the elephant out of the room. You can speak to me, I'm wearing bunny ears.

Speaker C: Anyway, school holidays, we're going to start with this.

Speaker A: I'm so sorry. It would just come out of it, haven't we?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you were kind of saying to me, it's been my first one.

Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, summer.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker D: Obviously the other ones are a week or two. I feel like they're manageable. Summer hit me like a ton of bricks, to be honest. No one prepared to be for it. Like my fellow mums, I haven't got many mum friends that have older children, and kind of one of them in your group, you will have children at different time, like your family. And I was sort of one of the first, so I wasn't prewarned about how long six weeks is and how difficult it is.

Speaker A: It's a **** show. And you know what? It doesn't get any easier. But I'm so sorry. Some holidays are better than others.

Speaker D: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker A: Book your summer holiday in the middle of the summer holiday, if you yeah.

Speaker D: We did it at the start and I feel like that was the place.

Speaker A: Don't do that. I used to do a thing when my kids were much smaller, and they're a bit older now, so they kind of get on with it, where I would get up really early.

Speaker D: Oh, gosh, okay.

Speaker A: Really early. But in the summer, it's actually yeah.

Speaker D: It'S easier than right now, which is obviously dark and bloomy.

Speaker A: And I would get all my emails out the way. I would get a crack load of work done, because also, the husband isn't up either, wanting coffee and shuttling about and trying to talk to you. So I actually did an awful lot.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: And it's a killer. It hurts at the beginning, but what is it they say about all the super high wealth individuals?

Speaker D: I see this on LinkedIn a lot and I'm like, but do they have kids? Yeah, that's a good idea. I am a morning person, so actually it does fit my life to do that. I just think now I have two kids, so that was my other issue. Not an issue. They're lovely. I love them both, really, but my youngest daughter was only born last December, so she is only a baby. So I had this first summer holidays and the baby, and that was like my time to come back to work. Like the end of my maternity leave, which is a juggle anyway. I mean, that's a whole another conversation, isn't it? Maternity leave so I just thought, oh, well, I'll ramp up in August, I'll get really back into it. Not for my clients, whatever else. And August weirdly, is quite busy for me where I work mainly with ecommerce clients.

Speaker A: Well, they're all getting cracking, aren't they?

Speaker D: Yeah, like, not so much if they've got young children, because they're juggling, too. But the August previous and this August were actually quite busy. I made some errors, definitely, but I think, like you say, maybe they will be good or bad ones and maybe you learn from each summer holiday how old your kids are and how, like, next summer that's the baby, she'll be in nursery. And so there'll be at least that one day, won't there, where it's like, actually, if the big one goes to club, I'm already kind of thinking and planning because I think we have to don't we have to think that far ahead?

Speaker A: You know what will happen come July? Suddenly you'll start to get sort of mum friends. You probably have some already.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where you're literally like, okay, girls, what are we going to do? I'll take them that day for the day. You take them that day for the day. I have so and so meeting. I have a friend around the corner and we literally sometimes we have to go through our diaries and we go, right, I have a call at this time.

Speaker D: Yeah, can you help?

Speaker A: Can you help? I mean, I have a little girl over this evening because my friend has a client call tonight at 04:00.

Speaker D: It's nice to have that support. I mean, I'm very lucky. I've got my mum and my mother in law, so I do have them. I know that's incredibly lucky. I've got friends who don't have their parents or parents in law living close by, so I have that. But then there's only so much they can do, especially when you've got two. I feel like the job to two kids was a bit like, well, you have them both together, they're not hard work. My children are very easy, really good kids, but it's still a lot like they're older. Obviously I'm tired and I'm in my 30s. I'm a planner, I'm an absolute planner. Like, I literally am planning next, all of next year's holidays now. Okay, that's actually really nice to hear from you. Just like, just then you could get up early. It's like, right, I'll try that. Or actually try not working some of it and not looking in that odd call. What I was doing was going, oh, yeah, I can do that call, that quick call. But then there's even if it's a discovery call, it's like, well, what about the after call work, the proposal, the follow up? Thinking about what you can do to help that client actually takes a lot of time and effort and I didn't plan for that at all. I like, stuffed loads of calls into.

Speaker A: One day don't you think, though, when and this is a lesson for us all, I think, as entrepreneurs and as small business owners. And it's taken me a year's worth of coaching to get to this point as well. Caviar, is you've got to think about your energy first. It's so important. So, yes, you've always got that thing ticking along in your mind, oh, but this could be a potential client. This is cash in the bank. This is like, oh, it's just interesting.

Speaker D: Like, oh, that sounds good. Really, like, excited by this. That's like but then you yeah, I think as I think I've learned as well a lot. I learned a lot in the last year, having my second child. And I think as mothers we do that. We don't think I need to act. I've had a few other freelancers say to me, gosh, you sound like you're not putting yourself first and you're not putting yourself first, but, like, even putting yourself in the mix, like, prioritizing some sort of self care and that sort of break from things because we are juggling so much. And that's been a real lesson for me as well, to just don't have to feel every single day with all the work and all the calls. If you do that, you're actually not very productive, are you? Really? Like and you're going to burn out from it. So I've learned tons just from living it, and then it constantly changes as your children grow and your business grows and you grow. Me, I feel like we're always in this chain. I feel like I'm in this period of my life where there's lots of change always from day to day. I guess that stems from having young children. But it's all good. It's brilliant.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's true.

Speaker D: You thrive off it, but also sometimes you're like, oh my gosh, I'm exhausted.

Speaker A: Exhausted. But you know what? This is something quite radical that I did this year. I took August off.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: The first time I've done it. And I've got two econ businesses that I work with at the moment, and obviously it's flipping mentor right now. Right?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I took August off and I'd had a discovery call with them, probably June and July, both of them, and I said to them, I can't start with you until September. That immediately made them want me more.

Speaker D: Really?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker D: Did you say, I'm taking August off? I said, I'm taking August, I'm going to be off. I can't oh, wow.

Speaker A: I'm not doing anything. I'm not doing any podcast work. I'm barely going to be on Insta. I might be on stories. That'll be it. I'm just doing family stuff. Wow. And I said, I'm back in September. Back in it.

Speaker D: We can strategize the **** out of this on September.

Speaker A: Actually, September and the third two emails. Are we starting now?

Speaker D: Yeah. I think the worry is, like, if you take these longer periods of time off, even a day off. Have to I think we think I thought, oh, being self employed, I'll just have days off all the time. But obviously we don't, we don't take holiday like you do in a employed role. So like annual leave, you don't go, well, I'm going to take these. You don't plot it all out because you just can't. So I think the worry is that we won't get work and those clients won't wait for me, like a month for months and ages. I mean, it's not really, is it?

Speaker A: Be surprised. You really would. And I think sometimes putting that barrier up, I mean, you think about when you're selling something yeah. When you make it really difficult to buy, you immediately want it more.

Speaker D: Yeah, this is true. Limited edition, right?

Speaker A: Limited edition. So you've almost made yourself that limited edition. Think personally as well, if I was going to employ someone, if someone said, oh, yeah, I can start next week, I'd be like, Why?

Speaker D: Yeah, this is true. Yeah. Why are you available so quick? Yeah, I think I have definitely learned another thing I've learned this year is to I was sort of saying yes to work. Yeah, I'll do that, I'll do that. I get that excited feeling like, oh, I'll start right away, I'll start tomorrow. And I realized I cannot do that. Like, I have two children, you know, life, home, all the other stuff, school, all the stuff that comes with that and life happening and whatnot. So I have learned, actually to go, you know what, november's done. I'm full. It is November. I'm definitely not going to be able to do anything else on top of it and actually going, you know what, yeah, we can start that in December or January, thinking to next year. But I'd never really thought I could do that. That's because I'm busy. And I think, what's, swapping to like, thinking, could I take August off? I'm not because I'm busy just to take it off. It just seems like a big jump, you know what I mean? Even though I already tell people, well, I'm booked up until December. It's the same thing, isn't it? It's just saying, I'm just going to take it off with the kids.

Speaker A: It is. And also another thing about instagram, that's another thing that's going on in your head. If you're not going to be on there, suddenly you're going to come back and you've lost like $200, maybe. Lost about four.

Speaker D: Yeah. Wow. You just think, I think it's why you think, I've got to build everything back up again. There is that momentum. But actually, if you've got bits and bobs lined up, the momentum just sort of kicks back in, doesn't it, with like, new clients, and then they might recommend someone or other marketing channels, sort of stuff in. Well, that's food for thought for next year.

Speaker A: I know something to think about. Honestly, it does get better I promise you, it really does. I'm going to nip into your instagram now as well because obviously I had to creep in before I came.

Speaker D: I always do get to know people that way.

Speaker A: I know, exactly. And I really loved it. It was probably a little bit down your feed. I was having a look for everything and you posted, don't just create a brand, create a community.

Speaker D: Yeah, everybody loves that place.

Speaker A: It's lovely.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's so important, I think, as business owners to kind of when you get bigger, I think it's even harder because you suddenly want to take yourself away from it somehow because you've got stuff that will do that for you. I think that's the wrong way to go. What do you think?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think I mean, I mainly work with the founders of businesses. So from very, very small or starting up to bigger that they might have a small team. But I generally seem to see that the founder, even when they get that bigger team, they are still really a part of it and really on show, almost like you say, like they are. It's not just about customer service and being I mean, small business have a great opportunity to give really personalized customer service that big brands don't. So it's not just that it's being seen and being the face behind the brand. I find that brands that I see that I don't really know who it belongs to and why they started it, I just can't connect with the brand as well. And obviously, yeah, I feel like that is a detriment, bigger brands and it's definitely an opportunity for small brands and across all their marketing. I mean, I was sort of saying it from an email marketing perspective because one of the things I focus on but it's not it can be across all your marketing, your social media, your email, your website, the amount. Of websites I go on and I'm like, you either don't have an about us page shop or it's just really like it's not really it's not enough. I'm like, tell people more about you. Like people want some people buy from people. Isn't that like classic marketing quote? So I always say, people just put more of you on show. Like, no one's going to say, oh, go away. No one's ever going to say that.

Speaker A: Say for instance with an email as well. Like, we're going to get into your email marketing genius in a bit, but say for instance with an email, don't you think it's a lot more personable when you get an email from an actual physical name rather than from the brand?

Speaker D: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: I would more than likely open it if it said someone's name. I'd be like, first of all, if it is a random name, you'll be like, who's that first? It's interesting. Then actually click on it.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think I have a few brands I wear with where it might be, like their name, and then from and then the brand, just so you then do know, oh, it is that brand, because you might not always remember the founder's name, but absolutely. And when you within the email itself, like signing off, it's just really simple stuff, but just signing off from the founder or someone within the business and having that message from the founder, like that welcome directly from the founder. I saw one recently, and I can't think what it was now, that it was quite a big brand, but it had the founders sign off. And I was like, oh, that's unusual. A bigger brand doing that. And I didn't instantly think, oh, I've got that connection with them. Because even though it was I'll have to Google. Even though it was a bigger brand, they've still using those techniques of a small brand and being able to talk directly to their audience from the founder and why she founded it. Oh, it was Elizabeth Carlette.

Speaker A: There you go. Yes.

Speaker D: I was like, right, sign up. Wanted to see I was just looking at the products, and then I was like, right, let's sign up to emails. I was like, dude, I'm incredibly noisy. And looking at, you know, it's all ideas, it's all inspiration and the welcome email. Yeah, obviously it's not signed off on her. We all know that it's an automated email. But it was just exactly that. It was like, oh, that's nice. Elizabeth is saying hi to me. She's really nice.

Speaker A: I tell you. She's brilliant at that, charlotte Tilbury.

Speaker D: Oh, is she? She's very personable, isn't she?

Speaker A: Really, really good.

Speaker D: She really lining up now. I know she really is.

Speaker C: She really is.

Speaker D: But you are you're buying from her, aren't you? Yes, her brand is her name, and obviously she is not doing all of it anymore. She's a but you still feel like.

Speaker A: It'S her because it even kind of sounds like her, like the copy sounds like her. Like it will be hello, darlings, because she's very darling. She's totally darling. But it will be that. And so, you know, it's not from her, of course. It sounds like it's from her.

Speaker D: Yeah. And it's just really nice. I just feel like I feel a connection to those brands more, and I feel like I'm not the minority. I'm sure most people do that, getting into psychology and all sorts, but it's just it goes back to people buy from people, whatever it is, whether you're selling products or services. Actually, as a service based business, I've realized I kind of have to put myself out there.

Speaker A: Has that been hard for you?

Speaker D: Sometimes. I mean, I love talking. I love podcasts. I love talking. Maybe not so much about myself. I'm happy to talk about out the things I know, like the things in terms of business and work and that sort of life. But me talking about myself is quite rare, I would say I'm more of a question ask her. So this is quite a reverse situation. So I'm quite happy to that's been, I guess, a slow process of meeting. Like, I can show my personal life as much as I want to, I guess.

Speaker A: As much as you want.

Speaker D: Exactly. Some people don't show their kids. I'm quite happy to show my kids. I get that there's like this tweet that we make of how much we're going to show. But I've definitely yeah, I think I've slowly just grown into, like, actually, people who work with me are going to say, oh, well, knows a lot about shopify or clay violence, but actually they're also going to go, oh, I've got this connection.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: Or I get her, I just like her vibe. And some people don't, which is fine. No problem.

Speaker A: Yes. That is another thing, actually, isn't it? When people don't get your vibe yet? Too hung up about it.

Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. I've got quite hard skin anyway. I've not had to, thankfully grow that, being self employed. I've always been quite tough in that respect. It's fine. Not that I'm not bothered, I care, but I'm like, it's fine. People just deal with people, don't they? So it's absolutely fine. It doesn't mean I'm bad at my job. Well.

Speaker A: For that person.

Speaker D: Exactly right.

Speaker A: I think that's what you've got to you've got to get your head around. I just finished Helen Perry's list club, so I was pretty hopeless at email marketing.

Speaker C: I was horrendous.

Speaker D: I'm sure you weren't.

Speaker A: No, I was. I was awful. I literally had nothing.

Speaker D: It's just honestly, it's at the bottom of everyone's list. This is what I get from clients. It's just at the bottom of the list to do that.

Speaker A: When I finished, I was like, why the hell have I not done this before?

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: Because it's literally like yeah, I mean, it's all very well having lots of followers on Instagram, but they're almost like you could kind of see it like they're your surface friends, Instagram, and then your email list are your little huggy bosom buddies.

Speaker D: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: And if you don't nurture those lovely bosom bodies and they're just going to fly off to someone else who matches their lovely birth and bodies.

Speaker D: Right, absolutely. I mean, I am the classic example of I don't practice what I preach. I don't do my email marketing very well, but then my marketing in terms of my business and myself, is just the bottom of my list. Because if you've got client work and opportunities, that takes priority. So I'm actually terrible at email marketing myself, but I'm generally terrible at marketing myself, and I think that's a classic problem. But in terms of what I tell people, it's exactly that. It's like you have to kind of do everything, unfortunately, because I might say, oh, well, I'll just stop spending time on Instagram. I'm like, oh, no, you can't do that. You kind of got to spread your time. But if you could just push a little bit more time over to email marketing rather than it being down the bottom, I think the results are just so much more powerful, more instant, and should be bringing you more revenue, which for the businesses I work with is the ultimate goal. Econ businesses revenue is kind of the top goal.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker D: From that whatever other softer metrics we talk about, it is essentially revenue, although that can be done in this softer way of community building. And it is just swapping those Instagram sort of tactics of community and it's almost just going shifting them to email because it's kind of similar like posting on Instagram, talking to your community email is kind of the same like you say it's talking to like this inner circle of your community as well. And being able to be kind of more honest and more frank and more and giving them more of you, perhaps.

Speaker A: I think so. And giving them little perks as well. Definitely seems to be the way forward, doesn't it?

Speaker D: Definitely. Why would you join a list if there is no incentive?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Do you think that's the number one thing you should have in place when you're starting your email list is the perks or.

Speaker D: That'S a tough question. I mean, the first thing you've got to do is get people on the list. So it's well and good. Someone saying, oh, you know, marketing is amazing. It's going to bring you this revenue or these customers or this yes, but if no one is on your list and everybody starts with zero and that reminds people that, okay, you might think, oh, but that competitor's got a 10,000 list, how could I possibly compete or do the same? It's like, well, they had zero once. Same with followers on Instagram. Everyone, it might obviously grow quicker for them than really tiny business without the sort of team or money behind it. But everyone starts with zero. So you've got to start with getting people on the list and how do you do that? And like we just said, it is incentivizing. So for us surge base businesses, it's that lead magnet, like what information or little goody am I going to give you to join my list? And I think that's making that really relevant to your target audience. And for me, working with econ businesses, the most obvious is the 10%. Welcome to 10%, right? It's everywhere, right? If you don't do it, people will go to a competitor potentially, not necessarily product or whatever. But that is so common now, isn't it? Like you kind of feel a bit miffed when you go on a site, you think you see the pop up come up in our list and you go, oh, where's the discount or the free shipping or the competition entry? If there's nothing, I would say that these companies that do nothing their sign up rate, conversion rate must be lower. I don't know. I think the small business that I'm dealing with, where they do have to compete with bigger ones, if they can offer something and it doesn't actually have to be 10%, that's just very common. It can just be free shipping or a free gift. A free gift with your order is a great one.

Speaker A: Free gift is really good. I love especially if you have like little mini.

Speaker D: Exactly. Something small or old stock you need to clear, like just something that's like a really nice I've seen three cards. Someone sells cards and things. It's like, actually that card is not going to cost much, but it's like, oh, I get a freebie that's quite a powerful one, actually, that I think is under use. But it's harder when you sell high priced products, obviously, what you use.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Do you think in terms of automation, especially, I'm going to put myself in here now. I now have a welcome email. Wow, never had that before.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker A: And then I remember having a scroll through your Instagram and you said that you need multiples and I said you went, oh, no, jeez, okay.

Speaker D: This is the thing I think you always struggle with it's like, oh, I don't want to tell people what they have to do. But you do have to. So yeah. Yes. Because again, it's back to this nurturing. If you just keep thinking about that nurturing that you brought up right at the beginning yeah, the email and then the next word almost was nurture. Well, if I just get one email saying, hello, it's lovely to have you, like, it's a nice email to get, and here's your offer, or whatever, if that's it. I mean, we're not really nurturing that customer, whether it's ecommerce or service based, we're not making sure they know who we are, what we do, what we're about, what's our vibe, all this stuff we basically just spoke about. And if it's e commerce, we need to say, this is what we sell. Like, we need to overtly say this is what we sell, and this is why it's good for you. And I think the problem is people I speak to always worried about, I don't want to bombard people with emails. I don't. That's the biggest worry. And if you, if you go to your inbox now, I've probably been pinged however many emails since we've been talking from however many brands, even if they're sending one a day, which I can kind of tell who is because I'm always in my inbox. That isn't even too much, really. Yeah, if it was, I would unsubscribe people can do that. But especially when we think about the welcome flow, like you've just mentioned, it's that opportunity to really talk about what you are, what you do, and how it benefits them. Because if they then suddenly start getting newsletters or campaign emails, they. Are so relevant to where their journey is with you and your business. Although that's part of the strategy. We don't say, don't do that. You want them to sort of get these targeted emails, to sort of talk them through the right message at the right time and really introduce them to your brand and your world and you, whatever it is. And it's just that perfect opportunity to nurture them and let them ask questions and let them say, like, reply and talk to me. And you could do loads with it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is amazing. I have set up a couple of slow funnels recently. So you bring them in with a lead, with an ad and it's a lead ad, and then you've got your little emails popping up and then if they don't buy at the third email, then another ad gets given to them.

Speaker D: Nice.

Speaker A: And then there's another couple of emails that kick off after that. If they still haven't bought, obviously these are giving them discounts and lovely information. Then if they still haven't bought, then they get this retarget ad at the end. So email marketing and ads work incredibly well with each other.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's putting that money up front. And we've got Black Friday and Cyber Monday and good as those, what else? When Christmas coming up? So the ad market at the moment.

Speaker C: Is fierce.

Speaker A: But it really does reap the best rewards, I think.

Speaker D: I guess it's combining those strategies of they are both how you've just explained it anyway, is like both nurturing it's, taking them on that journey, whether you use ads or if you just use email, if you just use ads, like whatever someone's strategy is, because we just can't do it all. I totally understand that as businesses, but it's like all of that is about that journey and making sure they're on that right path. Oh, they haven't done this, so they're going to do this. And that's exactly what email automation is all about, making sure that they're going down that right path. And if that links them with ads or your organic social or whatever, and the website absolutely just making sure they're going on the right journey. And the link where you're taking them off to that button is taking them to the right place. And what they're doing, like you've just said, if they don't do this, they're going to get this. That's what it's all about, just thinking and actually going back to bombarding with emails. You have to be sending a lot of emails. Yeah, you would, wouldn't you, to feel bombarded? Absolutely. Like, you can send quite a lot. You know, we all get hundreds, probably.

Speaker A: I read somewhere that someone needs to see something seven times before they take an action.

Speaker D: Yes, and I think that comes back to the trust as well, building trust, which is another about whether it's on their website. We want websites to be feel real and trusted and that there's a real person behind it and a real business that's going to refund you if you need it. But it's also building trust within email and that's how all these things work together, isn't it? That's why we can't stop doing Insta, because we've got our emails going amazingly well. Ads, when people want to I guess you must know more than doing it.

Speaker A: You have to do all the things and have them all running in place to kind of make everything work together. You can't have one thing without the other. And I think that's what I found, certainly with a lot of small businesses, they're like, well, okay, if I have these ads running, then I don't need to bother with all the organic stuff. And then I'm like, oh, no, you do. I'm so sorry.

Speaker D: It all worked together. And it's like, if you've got ads, if I see ads and then they go on to their Insta, if it's like running that way on Insta, and I'm like, oh, just look at their profile. And they've got no organic posts for like essentially yeah, you're like, are you real? Like, are you a real business? We all think that there's still a massive issue with trust on the internet, which is kind of unbelievable in 2022, but there is still a big issue where people don't trust websites. And if your instances bare, there just is that lack of like, oh, is this a real is this a real deal? If you then go on to the website, it's really shoddy or whatever. I mean, this is other chat, but like, I know it's that loading speed. There's a lot I can say about websites, but the point is it all works together, doesn't it? That ecosystem of if everyone who's listening and wants to start email, great, but unfortunately it's an addition to the some of the other things you're doing. Yeah, because you couldn't just stop and go about everything to our email because where would those people be coming from to join the list? It all just is that big world of ecommerce and marketing.

Speaker A: So our lovely listeners are small business owners. What do you think they need to have in place on their website?

Speaker D: I know it's probably where is this going?

Speaker A: If you can just kind of like, think about the kind of stuff that they need to make it a really lovely customer journey. Because I've seen some few honkers, probably.

Speaker D: More than a few, right? It's hard because this is hard because then when you have to tell people their websites terrible, although they usually know, that's really quite hard to do because usually they built it themselves. And what I've seen is that a lot of websites maybe sprung up in 2020 for, you know, we'd all know why. And people had to switch to online or they had to improve what they were doing online, and they had to obviously switch their business models quite quickly. And also a lot of businesses who might have already been trading online with notforgood websites suddenly would have just made more sales because we are a captive audience. We were locked down, we were shopping online. So that happened. And I would say in the last six months, maybe a year now, maybe this year is where we've seen people go, where's all my sales gone? I mean, there's lots of other things affecting the world right now which we won't get into. But life is different this year. One of the things is their websites just are not good enough. And you may have made sales during 2020, had the best year ever, whatever, but now I'm seeing a lot of not good websites that just aren't built to give that good user experience, that aren't easy to use, that aren't really branded with who they are and their branding. There's just so many there is almost too much to say. Like there is too much that you need. But what I tend to tell people is like, if you go on one of your favorite bigger brand websites, what are they doing? How are their product pages laid out? Because they are spending the money they are testing. They have a whole team in ecommerce doing this. And a lot of those things you can do with shopify, which is what most all my clients want, and a lot of small business selling online, they will turn shopify because it's easy to use.

Speaker A: Easy to yeah, it seems amazing.

Speaker D: It can be beautifully designed. So lot of those things if you see, oh, I really like what they're doing. John Lewis, I really like they've got well, you just need to kind of do that on your own website. I know it's so much easier said than done. So I do appreciate that it's knowing how and whatever else, but I've just seen people will quickly make a website because they can. That's what shopping has been built for, to do it yourself and then it's like, it's like leave it. And it's like you can't do that. You can't leave it. Just like you wouldn't leave an ad running forever and you wouldn't leave an email, just never check it ever again. You've got to come back to it and you've got to optimize it. It's really similar to ad strategies. You've got an email, you've got to make improvements, you've got to see what's working. And it just shouldn't be that like, oh, I'll just do it myself. Last thing on the list, it's your shop front, right? It's your shop window. So I just think there's a lot you don't know what you don't know. And I do believe I've spoken to a lot of people and small business owners who are trading online, they don't know it's not their fault. They just don't know how to or what to do, which hopefully I can teach because I love teaching. It's one of the things that I'm trying to do more. Obviously, not everyone can afford to have a website built for them or me to come in and do all that for them. So it's like, how can I help them and teach them to actually do it themselves and just make that website? Like you say, not shoddy. We don't get shoddy website. We want beautiful websites right.

Speaker A: That make lots of money and nurture their customers and their people and talk.

Speaker D: To their people who don't want boring websites.

Speaker A: Yes. Well, I'm on squarespace.

Speaker D: Oh, that's what my website is on as well.

Speaker A: And it decided to go black the other day.

Speaker D: Oh, fun.

Speaker A: I don't know whether it's still black, actually.

Speaker D: I'm pretty sure mine is not black. But, I mean, there's been a lot of funny things going on this week. Strange week.

Speaker A: I know, isn't it? It's a very strange week. We're in November 2022, if you're listening to this, and, like, in a couple of years from now. And we've had not only have we had an Instagram outage, and I had a couple of clients who just lost.

Speaker D: Yes. It was scary, though.

Speaker A: But it was scary. I had problems with Facebook business manager. Yesterday was fun.

Speaker D: Drop went down yesterday.

Speaker A: There you go. And I think it's still black.

Speaker D: Weird stuff is happening this week, guys.

Speaker A: Weird, weird. Digital weirdness.

Speaker D: I don't know why. I don't know if you've got a reason for it.

Speaker A: No reason for it other than something completely witchy. Right?

Speaker D: Yeah. Let's not let's move on.

Speaker A: Let's move on. Let's move on. How the hell did we get here? We were both in the fashion industry.

Speaker D: Yes. I was probably more briefly than you.

Speaker A: I was 13 years.

Speaker D: Okay. Yeah. I was a lot more brief.

Speaker A: I was 13 years. I don't know whether you feel this too, but I think the fashion industry for normal people is totally unsustainable. If you have a family life, I.

Speaker D: Couldn'T sustain it as a single very young person.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: Yeah. Well done, you, for doing 13 years.

Speaker A: I did 13 years, yeah. All in the same job as well.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker A: I know. I worked for Jimmy Choo for a very long time.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker A: And, yes, it's glamorous, but then it's not glamorous. There's an awful lot of opening boxes in dark rooms.

Speaker D: I've done that.

Speaker A: An awful lot of dragging. Huge amount of incredibly expensive clothing in a rucksack across East London.

Speaker D: A bit scary.

Speaker A: Yeah. All that kind of stuff. Do you kind of feel like you fell into your role, or was it a real kind of you were like, no, I just want something completely different.

Speaker D: That's a really good question, actually, I probably would say yes. So, yeah, I did a fashion degree, but it was like fashion writing, so fashion journalism, fashion history. Like, it was much more I am not a fashion textile designery. I cannot know. Like, I am not able to do anything manual with my hands. I'm terrible. So it was a much more academic, maybe that side of fashion. And Jen, I really wanted to be a fashion journalist, so I did a lot of I mean, you say 13 years, I probably did 13 months, because I did a lot of as you do when you finish university, you go off and do internships. That's part of my goodness. You've paid for a degree, now go and work for free.

Speaker A: So you in the cupboard.

Speaker D: So I did a lot of PR intensive. I don't know how I got into the PR side. I think you do just fall into these things. My degree was quite broad and I think I was like, oh, I quite like PR. And yeah, so I did a couple of fashion PR internships, some better than others. I was at Tatler for a day and I was like, can't do it, I'm not that bad. I was like, I can't do and I did she magazine. Obviously, that's not around anymore. And that's when I was in the fashion cupboard, which was like, you say it's fun, it's fast, it's fashion, like it's all, but it's also really hard work and really there's just so much there was so much stuff, there's so much like you need to do and it needs to be done really quick. And it's like.

Speaker A: It was totally right.

Speaker D: And then I did some others and I was like, yeah, I can't do fashion. I can't be in that world. It's not me. NPR wasn't really me. But this is the thing you just learned. That's a benefit, I think, from internships. Even though I don't agree with working for free. I'm not sure if that is the case now, but you kind of quickly learn what you do and don't like. If I hadn't done those, then maybe I'd got a job in PR and I would hate it, I don't know. And then her husband and I, we went off into two seasons and it was like, right, let's just go and do that sort of travelee thing. I saw what I want to do and then we came back and I just got a job with the website, a gift website in London, and just started in sort of the fashion merchandising and just quickly realized I liked the website and the commerce side. All the website can do this. And the journey, it was a very natural sort of evolution, I guess, from fashion and stock and merchandising into everything ecommerce, but mainly that sort of websites and email marketing and people.

Speaker A: It's people, isn't it? It kind of gets a feel of what you're good at. And it was always people with me. I was always very good at kind of talking to people. So I ended up being a personal shopper for a few years, about five years, I was a personal shopper. I loved it, absolutely loved it, because I was talking to people constantly.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: Then I got poached by Jimmy Choo, and then that was it. Yeah. It is like an evolution, isn't it? I think you kind of definitely end up going on a journey. And it's not necessarily planned.

Speaker D: No, not at all, really. I mean, maybe some people do plan it. I have a planner, but I haven't really planned anymore. It's a lot of winging.

Speaker A: Yes, it is a lot of wing, isn't it?

Speaker D: And just I don't know. I'm very much about the gut instinct and the gut feel.

Speaker A: You're a gut person.

Speaker D: I'm a gut person. Is that what they're calling it? I'm a gut person? Yes. I sometimes have to tell I feel like I have to tell clients because I'm like, oh, I just really feel like we should do this or this. And I'm like, okay, there is data. We can look at email marketing data and website data. Like, everything in ecommerce ads is DayToday to data. But actually, sometimes don't you just have to trust that gut feel of, I think we need to do this?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think when you don't go with your gut, that's when it tends to go tips up.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. So I think when I look back at those points of life, we just whisked through. There was a lot of gut feel, gut decisions, like, I don't want to do PR. Let's go and do ski season. We just went off. We lived in London, we now live in Hampshire. We just moved. We just went, we need to leave London, we need to move that. And it was quite a lot of gut feel decisions, and becoming self employed was kind of a bit of a gut feel. And I am very much a gut person.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I am, too. And a lot of the people I speak to on here are gut people. There was a head person, and I was like, oh, my goodness, you've crept in from nowhere.

Speaker D: And I think maybe that's like a common theme for if you're going to start a business, whether it's ecommerce based, whatever, you kind of got to have real belief in yourself. And that is that gut feeling, isn't it? And making those decisions. Sometimes when you've got a case to look at all the data and whatever, but actually just got to go. You've got to stay true to what you want and go with that guy, I think.

Speaker A: So what's next for you? What are you planning for the next couple of years?

Speaker D: Well, next couple of months, since I started my business, the whole point of it was about learning and teaching and teaching people to sell online, teaching things, teaching people ecommerce. I just saw that there's this massive gap in the market for there was a lot of sort of Ads courses and ads learning and learn it, but there wasn't really like that ecommerce, like that fundamentals of it. And whether that's websites or email marketing, they're kind of my two things. So that I have been literally working on for two years, like trying to build this, I call it an ecommerce school, but I don't know what it's going to be. That's just my sort of little word for it. So building this place where people can learn, someone learn from me, maybe from other experts, I don't know, your mind goes to like this massive thing, but actually I need to just keep it quite small so that I'm working on continually. And I just I just feel like it will help a lot more people. It's that accessible way to learn these things about like, shopify, like, how do I do this? How do I do how do I make my website look like this? Very expensive custom website. So that's always something I'm working on that I just I really hope it does launch next year.

Speaker A: Exciting.

Speaker D: It's all good. Just busy.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly.

Speaker D: Life is busy. Right?

Speaker A: You'll have to let me know when it's launched because I'll need to update the podcast notes and I will have something on there, guys, I promise you.

Speaker D: Amazing. Thank you.

Speaker A: Because it is needed. Definitely.

Speaker D: I think so.

Speaker A: Definitely. There's an awful lot of entrepreneurs that go out there and they think, right, I have this amazing product, I want to sell it. But don't really know the technicalities of all this stuff because it is technical.

Speaker D: As well as being creative. And you've got its marketing, it's branding, it's talking to customers, all that. But actually there is a little bit of technical and a lot of people do say like, oh, I'm a technical, but I can't do the website stuff, but it's like, oh, you can. So you need to be taught, don't you? Like, how could you do it without.

Speaker A: For God's sake, ask for help. Yeah, exactly what we can say, right? Yeah, just please just ask for help. I'm excited for you. Yes, please let me know when it all goes ahead and I'll update those things and we will be able to.

Speaker D: Give me like ammo just to get it done.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know. We're all poised waiting to hear about this. I've had a few of these interviews where people are like squirreling away and they're almost ready to promote it and they're like, when is it going to come out? And I'm like, it's probably going to be in the next couple of weeks, guys.

Speaker D: It won't be.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Exciting stuff. Exciting stuff. Okay, marvel.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: This is the last question.

Speaker D: Marvel, this was my favorite question that you took me to, but I was also like, how do you know I like normal? Where have I put that?

Speaker A: Instagram. I told you I was looking at Instagram. I actually read this stuff. You did? You put it in there?

Speaker D: It cracked in there for bit of myself. I'm happy to share.

Speaker A: I can only blame my husband for my Marvel thing. Do you geek out of it? Do you go on YouTube and look at all the explanation?

Speaker D: I'm not a video person, I'm not YouTuber, but after watching it, I like all sort of fantasy. I love the kid, Harry Potter, like, all of it. I'm going to admit to that now. I'm a bit of a geek. So, yes, I then geek out and I go on like four at fan four.

Speaker A: Oh, I love it.

Speaker D: Everything. I'm like, what does that mean? And like, yeah, I'm just an absolute dog.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know, but we all are, I think, aren't we?

Speaker D: But it's like just that thing. I've always liked it. I read a lot of The Rings when I was like, at twelve. I've just been a sort of fantasy. And I think that superhero thing does fit into that, but it's almost like an accessible way for people who are like, I don't do fantasy.

Speaker A: It's a total break from the start.

Speaker D: It's music, it's quite fun and it's quite, you know, I love most Marvel things. Maybe not so much of the recent stuff, Marvel. I remember I was in sick form, I did media studies or whatever it was in sick form. And we went to the cinema as a little trip, a little study to watch the first Iron Man. And obviously that was like the first of Marvel. Like, that was like, is Marvel. That was before superheroes had sort of made this big. You know what it is now? It's unbelievably popular. And that was that punt, I guess. And I just remember being like, that's amazing, I love it. And I think from that moment, I was like, well, this is my new obsession. Like, yeah, I already probably did like it a bit, but it's then been like, we have to go and see the new release. Like, every film that's come out, you know, endgame it was like, yeah.

Speaker A: I did go and see it. I did see through it, so I really enjoyed myself. Who's your favorite Marvel character before we go? Who do you love?

Speaker D: That's really hard at the minute because it probably does change.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know, it changes massively.

Speaker D: I do love Thor, but I didn't like the new Thor, so he's gone. And my favorite at the minute is probably Antman, which is a bit neat. Antman.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, he's not niche at all.

Speaker D: I do love Paul rudd as well.

Speaker A: My daughters love the antman.

Speaker D: I think they're too younger audience and they're funny, right? They're a bit more like lighthearted.

Speaker A: They like his mate, you know, the guy that talks really quickly and has to explain everything. They love him.

Speaker D: I think it is. It's lighthearted. That's what we need right now. So that's my yes.

Speaker A: No, antman is good.

Speaker D: Go watch that if you haven't watched it before.

Speaker A: Yeah, if you haven't seen all the Antman, I think it's a new one coming out. There we go.

Speaker D: There is. I watched the trailer now.

Speaker A: You did.

Speaker D: There we go.

Speaker A: I know. Total geek. Oh, my goodness. Right, this is the last, last question now, and this is because I only ask everybody to do this, okay?

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: The one thing you'd like to do in the next couple of months, you've just got to overcome your fear of it. We're not doing in the next couple of years. The next couple of months, even, like tomorrow.

Speaker D: This could be personal, not business. Right?

Speaker A: Because we all know absolutely anything. I've had skydivers of skydivers.

Speaker D: Not that I mean, like read a book again would be, I know, let's do something personal then. I would like to it's a bit niche, but go and have the time on myself and go for like a swim. Something I don't, because I've obviously still got my daughter under one and like, it's much to change.

Speaker A: She's tiny.

Speaker D: She's tiny. And it's been like full on. Your mothering and I just would like to carve out that little bit of time now. I've got sort of some working days in my week and go, I'm not going to start work until eleven on a Wednesday or whatever, because I'm going for that swim or that bike ride.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: I'm not a big exercise person, I'll admit that, but something gentle and I enjoy. And if I say it out loud, maybe it will happen.

Speaker A: It's going to happen.

Speaker D: Well, it's really small, but I think you've got to take those small steps sometimes. Big, because I'm not in that part of my life.

Speaker A: Just getting the micro, little micro thing. Okay.

Speaker D: It's a habit, isn't it? Building that habit of if I start doing that and it's that time in your calendar, kind of stick to it, don't you?

Speaker A: Yes. Stick it in the Google Calendar and then that's it.

Speaker D: It's there cement.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's there. It pops up on your phone. Going for a swim, going swimming out. Okay. Right. I'm going. That's fine. I'll go now.

Speaker D: Yes. I need someone to tell me what to do, I think, because as a mom, I'm sort of telling everyone what to do all the time.

Speaker A: It's nice to have someone.

Speaker D: Yeah. Even if it is Google Cal saying, l go and swim. That's what I kind of need. I think that's just what I need at the minute.

Speaker A: Yeah. And put it on Instagram when you go, and I will cheer you. I will cheer you on with all.

Speaker D: My wet hair, but cheer you on, I will. Yeah, you do need that support, that community. You do need that. Sometimes it can be lonely, this business life.

Speaker A: It can definitely. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you.

Speaker D: Thank you so much.

Speaker A: So, hello, my loves.

Speaker C: I'm back to say goodbye. The sun has finally come out on this rather blustery November day. And that was a rather wonderful interview, wasn't it? I really hope you enjoyed it. Elle actually came into my DMs the other day to say that, yes, she is launching her school in January, so all the details will, of course, be in the podcast notes. You can go up and sign for that. I think you're going to find it hugely beneficial, especially if you're not quite sure how you're going to sell this amazing product you have in your head or in your hands to the world. And you kind of need a bit of help. I think we all need a bit of help sometimes, don't we? Next week is going to be a solo episode. I've got no idea what I'm going to talk about yet. Probably going to be something to do with Black Friday. Should we talk about Black Friday? I think that's probably a good thing. I know it's coming up and I know we're going to be kind of bombarded with everything. I'm going to take my take on it. I think that's what we're going to do. We're going to talk about my take on Black Friday.

Speaker A: Let's do that.

Speaker C: I really, really hope to see you next week. I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful week ahead. And, yeah, I'll see you again soon. Goodbye for now.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for listening to that one thing. And please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. It really helps to get my little podcast into the universe and I'll be forever grateful.

Speaker D: Music you.